Debate between Muslims and Christians - Adam & Eve and Peter & Paul

Greetings of Peace in the Name of JESUS CHRIST.

TDNC, Your argument on 1,000 years for a Day cannot be accepted is rather biased because you changed the Law of Jehovah GOD with the addition of word "same" in His Law. You better show me the Law of God "die in the SAME day"???

You wrote to Mr. Worthyisthelamb 12-6-2010:

When God told Adam that Adam will die in the same day he eat the forbidden fruit,
did God inform Adam that God meant 1000 years ??
If YEESSS is your answer, please show the proof ?

Unquote

The Original Law of God reads as follows:
Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
Gen 2:17  but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

The idiom "IN THE DAY" before sin entered into the Garden of Eden is the Time of GOD and not the earthly days. It does not say "IN THE SAME DAY"??? "In The Day" is Within The DAY.

930 years is still within the Day of 1,000 years. Now  930 years for the age of a man is not an ordinary thing we see today. Adam and Eve were like immortals before they sinned against GOD. Today man cannot even live up to 200 years! Because 930 years are extra ordinary life span for mankind today, we have to use God's reckoning of time. Before Adam has eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, how could he rationalize about One Day is not 1,000 earthly years??? All Adam knew was not to eat the fruit and he knew it although he may not understand how long is the day. God does not define "the Day" to Adam. So you have to use logical reasoning in order to be fair and accurate in your interpretation of God's Word.

Did God say His One Day is not equal to 1,000 earthly years? Read your Quran first and answer me.



XXX TDNC
++ Positron


Dear Positron,

Can we also agree that since Jesus, being ONLY a man
DIRECTLY appointed Peter to be ONLY an Apostle,
the 2 angels did not see it fit to ask the women folk to
summoned Peter to their presence ?

+++ Your assumption is refuted by the words of an Angel in this passage:


ESV
Mark 16:1  When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
Mar 16:2  And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.
Mar 16:3  And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?"
Mar 16:4  And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back--it was very large.
Mark 16:5  And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed.
Mark 16:6  And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mark 16:7  But go, tell His Disciples and PETER that He is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."
Mark 16:8  And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

There are 3 witnesses namely Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome.

The Angel advised the women to notify All Disciples of JESUS and particularly the name of PETER was mentioned.

Luke 24:18  Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

This Cleopas is believed to be the husband of Mary, the sister of virgin Mary. Joh_19:25.  Cleopas was told by the three women who saw the vision of angels which said that LORD JESUS was risen.  He related the incident to LORD JESUS whose contenance had changed to another form after resurrection.
Mark 16:12  After that He appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Luk 24:21  But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the Third Day since these things were done.
Luke 24:22  Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning,
Luke 24:23  and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of Angels, who said that he was alive.
Luke 24:24  Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

Now even the other disciples of JESUS such as Cleopas knew about the vision of Angels from the women that JESUS was risen. Definitely Apostle Peter was informed of the words of the Angel who spoke to the women.

It does not affect Apostle Peter as a reliable eye-witness even though he did not see LORD JESUS in the early morning of resurrection. BUT LORD JESUS appeared to ALL the 10 APOSTLES including PETER except Thomas, in the Evening of the same Day.

John 20:18  Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
John 20:19  On the Evening of that Day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
John 20:20  When He had said this, He showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
John 20:21  Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."
John 20:24  But Thomas, one of the Twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

As LORD JESUS personally showed "them his hands and his side", they were glad that they saw Him except Thomas who was not there. It implies that Apostle Peter saw LORD JESUS in the Evening of that day of Resurrection and he was glad to see Him without any further doubts.

That is the first encounter by Apostle Peter after the resurrection of LORD JESUS CHRIST.


Apostle Peter and other 10 apostles such as Matthew, John, Thomas and other disciples  gathered together at the same place 8 days later. The first day of resurrection was a Sunday and 8th day will be a Sunday again.

This verse proves that the gathering was not confined to the 11 Apostles but also some of his 70 disciples (Luke 10:1) appointed by LORD JESUS CHRIST, which may include Luke and John Mark, as "those with them".

Luke 24:33  And they arose, the same hour, and returned: to Jerusalem. And they found the Eleven assembled, and those with them

John 20:26  And after eight days again His disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.


The above second encounter with LORD JESUS was meant for doubting Thomas and not for doubting Peter. The phrase "Again His Disciples were within" shall include Apostle Peter similar to the previous week.


John 21:1  After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

John 21:7  Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.


During the 3rd encounter with LORD JESUS, Apostle Peter was restored to his original honour by answering 3 times from the questions of LORD JESUS because of his earlier denial of not knowing Him for 3 times.


John 21:14  This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
John 21:15  So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


The conclusion of Apostle Peter is a fair statement of what he saw and heard from LORD JESUS CHRIST personally.

2Pet 1:16  For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were Eyewitnesses of his majesty.


XXX

Tell me,
how will the 2 angels, Jesus and Bible God view CHRISTIANS who venerate
Self-Confessed LIAR & MURDERER Paul who,
SELF-APPOINTED HIMSELF (Paul ) to become the 13TH APOSTLE, when,
Jesus nor God nor the 11 remaining Apostles DID NOT appoint Paul to replace Judas Iscariot ?....( Acts 1 : 23-26 )

+++
The 13th Apostle is not Paul which you have incorrectly stated. Matthias was the 13th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot.

Acts 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.


Paul was the 14th Apostle-cum-Prophet appointed by LORD JESUS CHRIST, not a self-appointed apostle. Unlike Muhammad which was a self-proclaimed Prophet because Waraqa bin Naufal was a Christian convert and not a prophet himself. He was in no position to proclaim Muhammad a prophet to the Arabs. The past prophets were proclaimed by God personally such as Moses before His law on anointing or ordination was given. After the Law of anointing or consecration for service was instituted, all prophets, kings and priests have to be anointed by another practising prophet or priest.

Exodus 28:41  And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

As for Lord JESUS CHRIST, He was proclaimed a prophet by Prophet John the Baptist and anointed by the Holy Spirit who came in the form of dove.


As for Apostle Paul, Luke the Disciple was a witness to the testimony of Paul on his vision of LORD JESUS CHRIST. Luke recorded the incident in the Book of Acts of the Apostles.
Act 9:4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


Then LORD JESUS appointed Ananias of Damascus as a witness to pray for Paul in order to regain his eye-sight.

Act 9:10  And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11  And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12  And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.


The Mission for Apostle Paul was proclaimed by Lord JESUS to Ananias.

Act 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16  For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Act 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit from LORD JESUS CHRIST as recorded by Luke. We have both Luke the Disciple and Ananias the Disciple as 2 witnesses to establish the appointment of PAUL by LORD JESUS CHRIST as the Apostle or "chosen vessel" to the Gentiles, Kings and to the JEWS (Acts 9:15).

How do we know that Paul is the true Apostle of JESUS?
Because he proclaimed that JESUS is the Son of God.
Acts 9:20  And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Muhammad failed to proclaim that JESUS is the Son of God and he was rejected as a true prophet.

This Word of God refutes Muslims' false claim of Paul was a self-proclaimed 13th Apostle.


+++

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
For in THE DAY THAT YOU EAT OF IT YOU SHALL SURELY DIE.


XXX

God told Adam that......

" THE DAY THAT YOU EAT OF IT YOU SHALL SURELY DIE."

Now, lets read when did Adam die...

KJV Gen 5 : 5
and all the days that ADAM LIVED WERE
NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY YEARS: AND HE DIED.


QUESTIONS :

01). Who told the truth that Adam will / will not die if, Adam ate the fruit.....

BIBLE GOD or SATAN (serpent ) ?

+++
Jehovah God's Word is the Absolute Law and not the words of SATAN


XXX
02). Did Bible God ABROGATE His own commandment or not ?

+++
NO,  it was you who misunderstood the Law of Jehovah GOD.

Read carefully the Law of Jehovah GOD.
KJV Genesis 2:17  But of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The phrase "IN THE DAY" in Gen 2:17 does not mean "ON THE DAY" or INSTANTLY but it means IN ONE DAY.

Now before sin enter into the world, Adam and Eve are immortals and could live for eternity in the time of GOD and not of this world although the Garden of Eden is on earth and not in Heaven.

A day to God is a thousand years to mankind.
2Pet 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Muhammad copied from the Bible in a similar manner but contradicted himself.

How long is Allah's Day?
1.     Allah's day is equal to a thousand solar years. Surah 22:47
2.       A day is 50 thousand solar years long. Surah 70:4


In God's time of One Day, it is a period of 1,000 earthly years.

As Adam died at the age of 930 years, it is still IN ONE DAY of GOD's time.

Gen 5:5  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

There is no contradiction of Jehovah God's Word in the Holy Bible. While Quran Surah 70:4 is a clear contradiction with Surah 22:47 in respect of One Day of God's time. Surah 70:4 is Not about the Judgment Day Period but it is regarding the Day for spirits and angels to travel to the presence of God.


XXX

In case you want to explain that " DIE " means a metaphorical or spiritual death, then,

+++
God's Law on "die" is also Spiritual Death and Eternal Separation. Do you not forget Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden? The moment they ate the forbidden fruit, they violated the Law of God and were Spiritually Dead.

XXX
Please also explain the metaphorical and spiritual meanings for the following

03). In Heaven were Adam & Eve in Physical Form or Spiritual Form ?

+++
Adam and Eve were in physical form in the Garden of Eden which is on earth, not in Heaven. Quran has the false impression that Garden of Eden is in Heaven.

The Word of God says Adam was made of dust of the ground and there was breath of life from God.
KJV Genesis  2:7  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Both Adam and Eve were immortals in physical form.


XXX
04). Was the fruit in physical, spiritual or metaphorical form ?

+++
The fruit was in physical form from the tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


05). What is the spiritual or metaphorical meaning of " ate the fruit " ?

+++
Literally meaning of eating fruit


06). Were their eyes opened in spiritual, metaphorical or physical sense ?

+++
Human eyes are already opened in order to see things. Here the word of God for "eyes of both of them were opened" means metaphorically they became conscious of sin and folly.

Gen 3:7  And the eyes of both of them were opened. And they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made girdles for themselves.

"The eyes of them both were opened" - They now had a sufficient discovery of their sin and folly in disobeying the command of God; they could discern between good and evil; and what was the consequence? Confusion and shame were engendered, because innocence was lost and guilt contracted.


07). How cud they see their NAKEDNESS ?

+++  Before they sinned against God's Law, they had no knowledge of good and evil, pride or shame. This consciousness of nakedness came  after sin had entered into their life. they sewed fig leaves together and made girdles for themselves.


08). Did they both sew spiritual, metaphorical or physical (smp) FIG LEAVES ?

+++ physical  fig leaves. You see Adam and Eve are human beings like you and me. They are not angelic beings before sin entered into their heart. So everything is physical.

09). Did they both put on (smp) APRONS to cover their (smp) NAKEDNESS ?

+++ You have misconception that they have spiritual bodies. That is the root cause of your misunderstanding on the Law of God.

XXX

Oh ! heres another verse

KJV Gen 3 : 21

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

10). How do (smp) coats of skins (smp) clothed Adam and Eve ?

+++
Physical bodies need physicak coats of animal skins, nothing spiritual

XXX
and finally,

Do you know that the Bible " ETERNAL " God is afraid of competition......,
thus making Bible God an " INSECURE " God ?

KJV Gen 3 : 22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of
" THE TREE OF LIFE, AND EAT, AND LIVE FOR EVER

+++
It is not a matter of insecurity but to preserve the truth of the Law of God. The Eternal God have to ensure His Eternal Law  is enforced and justice is served.

If Adam and Eve who became knowledgeable of good and evil took the fruit from the Tree of Life and eat, they live forever and will not surely die as His Law says so. So how could God enforce His own Law under such circumstances???

Gen 2:17  but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.


SATAN is the accuser before Jehovah God and his mission is to cause people to disobey Jehovah God. Once he succeeded to cause Adam and Eve to fall into sin, they lost their immortality and communion with GOD.


What kind of Allah are you talking about when he can abrogate his own laws and cannot keep his laws but force people to keep it??? Praying 5 times a day and facing the Kaaba  is not the Law of Moses, not the Law of JESUS, not the Law of Jehovah BUT the Law of Muhammad!!!


" ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free " John 8:32

John 8:31  Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, "If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed."

You have to abide by the Word of JESUS and not of men! Only the Word of JESUS can set you Free from false doctrine of SATAN penned by hands of men in the Book of men.


If you still think SATAN cannot know QURAN, you are wrong because he could mislead Eve with his sound knowledge in the word of GOD. If SATAN was stupid as false prophet, then how could he succeed to tempt Eve and Adam???


In Islam Allah is Almighty and there is no Free will at all. Whatever Allah will, it will be done. But you can see as why Allah cannot command Iblis/ Satan to bow before ADAM???

Surah 7:11
And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: "Fall ye prostrate before Adam!" And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration.


Why do Angels who are greater than Adam have to prostrate before Adam created from the dust of the ground??? That is idolatry because man cannot be prostrated in praise nor in worship. Angels worship only GOD and never a created being like Adam.