Debate between Christian and Muslims on Bible and Quran, and their founders of the religion. Let's reason together based on the 2 Books. More details at Youtube.com
Sunday, January 17, 2010
Debate between Muslim and Christian on the original Injil and Muslims to Hell in Surah 19:71-72
Greetings to you Ali
Thank you for responding to my questions. I have made another response to you in respect of the viewpoints which I disagree with you.
XXX Ali +++ Positron
LEGEND XXX means "wrong, wrong, wrong Brother Ali" +++ means "In the Name of Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified and died on the Cross in Jerusalem. There are 3 Crosses as JESUS was crucified together with 2 criminals on the Crosses with JESUS in between them."
XXX Sir, go read your bible, Moses was a prophet before Aaron, so moses confirmed Aaron, not the other way around. But needless to say straw arguments are exactly that.
+++ Now it was Moses who confirmed Aaron. But Moses was more than a Prophet as you failed to point it out that he was like Elohim; so who said he was a prophet???
Exo 7:1 And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made you a god(Elohim) to Pharaoh. And Aaron your brother shall be your Prophet.
Both Moses and Aaron were appointed at the SAME TIME and not Moses was appointed earlier. It is right to say God spoke to Moses first but in term of appointment of Prophet it was Aaron and not Moses because Moses was made like Elohim (Gods) and not merely a Prophet.
All these verses proved that God appointed Moses and Aaron at the same time.
Exo 6:13 And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron (simultaneously), and gave them a charge to the sons of Israel, and to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt.
Exo 6:26 It was Aaron and Moses to whom Jehovah said, Bring out the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt according to their armies.
Exo 7:2 You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron your brother shall speak to Pharaoh, he will send the sons of Israel out of his land.
Exo 7:6 And Moses and Aaron did as Jehovah commanded them; so they did.
Exo 7:8 And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying: Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak to you saying, Give a miracle for yourselves, you shall say to Aaron, Take your rod, and throw it in front of Pharaoh. It shall become a snake. Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh. And they did so, as Jehovah had commanded. And Aaron threw down his rod in front of Pharaoh and in front of his servants, and it became a snake.
As Aaron was the spokesman for Moses, Aaron was the Prophet while Moses was made like Elohim who was tasked to perform the miracles through the rod of God.
Read the verses again:
003.081 YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH YOU; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
The verse is not saying that you need to confirm him. The verse is saying he would confirm what you have with you of the book and wisdom. Then god further goes on to ask them if they would believe in him and render him help, this is not talking about help fighting jihad rather it is talking about spritual help.
+++ Now you miss the main point about this utmost message of Allah ( I do not mean he is the Father of Jesus but your Muslim God) to Prophets (plural) before Muhammad: When Allah MADE (His) covenant with the PROPHETS: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a Messenger, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH YOU; do ye believe in him and render him help."
1. Who is this message given to? Practising Prophets
2. What is the criterion of a new Messenger like Muhammad? He have to confirm the scripture of the prophets before him that is CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH YOU; THE PRACTICING PROPHETS whom God spoke to before the late comer Muhammad.
These are parts of the scriptures from Prophet MOSES and PROPHET JESUS Al-MASSIH. Muhammad have to agree to this Law of God as confirming the scripture before him.
Exodus 29:7 God said to Moses "Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and ANOINT him. Exo 29:9 And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a Perpetual Statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons. Exo 30:30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office. Exo 30:31 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be a holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations.
Lev 8:12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and ANOINTED him, to sanctify him.
Lev 7:36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute forever throughout their generations.
1Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and ANOINTED him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
Luke 4:18 JESUS said "The Spirit of JEHOVAH (the Lord) is upon me, because he hath ANOINTED Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised"
Mat 3:14 But John (the baptist) forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was BAPTIZED, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Act 10:42 Apostle Peter said "And He (JESUS) commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Act 10:43 All the Prophets give witness to Him, that through His name whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins. Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word. Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision, who believed (as many as came with Peter), were astonished because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the nations also. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The principle drawn from the above passages is not that the anointing oil of Moses should be used to anoint Muhammad. God has even anointed Jesus the Son of God with the oil of the Holy Spirit of God. Then the apostles of JESUS practised the water baptism as the symbolic of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit of God. The practice of water baptism is still practised by the Church today.
The basic truth is that the one who professes to believe in the teachings of JESUS must be witnessed by another person of authority such as bishop or pastor of the Church who have undergone the similar baptism ceremony. The Commandment of Baptism was given by Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus was the first person to receive the baptism of the Spirit of God; it occurred about 537 years before Muhammad came in 610CE. Then all the followers or true believers will have to go through the water baptism similar to the practice of JESUS Himself. Muhammad cannot change the commandment of JESUS to baptize all believers with water and with the Holy Spirit. The fact that Muhammad was not helped by any practicing prophet proved that he failed the criterion of a true prophet in Surah 3:81.
Yusuf Ali's translation is not the best English version as Pickthal and Sakir Translation proves to be better and clearer:-
Sura 3:81 Pickthal When Allah MADE (His) covenant with the Prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter) ? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
Shakir Translation concur with Pickthal Translation is it was Allah "made" a covenant with the prophets and not that Allah "took" the covenant of prophets as incorrectly translated by Yusuf Ali.
Sura 3:81 Shakir And when Allah MADE a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom -- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness
XXX And there is not a muslim who practices who cannot say that they have not gained anything from the previous prophets, as their stories are mentioned in the quran as examples for us to follow. So from the examples of the prophets before they have rendered help to muhammad(saw) because these examples he looked at to know what they did wrong so he doesnt make that mistake. So because you have a corrupt way of reading the verse doesnt make it wrong.
+++ What are you fooling about "So from the examples of the prophets before they have rendered help to muhammad(saw) because these examples he looked at to know what they did wrong so he doesnt make that mistake.'???
The context is not about examples of the Prophets before Muhammad. It is about the practicing Prophets who have to witness that Muhammad truly have confirmed the scripture in their possession and then they helped the new messenger. The verse does not say Muhammad will be given the scripture to confirm the earlier scripture before him.
As I have pointed it out to you that it was you who highlighted the verse in bold to mean the scripture was with YOU. No, the verse does not mean YOU is Muhammad, it was the prophets before Muhammad as the subsequent words of Allah prove you wrong: "THEY answered: We agree."
XXX YOU: What Muhammad meant by "We believe in that which has been... revealed unto you"? ME: What he means is we believe that: 003.003 YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
+++ Okay Quran makes an assertion that Allah sent down the book of the Gospel of Jesus. Now if the Quran can exist for around 1,400 years and Book of Moses can exist for over 4,000 years. Then where is the Book of Jesus which Quran claims that Allah sent down the Book of Jesus as a guide to mankind???
XXX 005.068 YUSUFALI: (deleted - irrelevant to prove Gospel is from Allah)
048.029 YUSUFALI: (deleted - irrelevant to prove Gospel is from Allah)
+++ Surah 29:46 - Pickthal And argue not with the PEOPLE OF THE SCRIPTURE unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; "our God AND your God" is One, and unto Him (same One) we surrender.
Surah 29:47 - Pickthal IN LIKE MANNER WE have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom WE GAVE THE SCRIPTURE AFORETIME will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And NONE deny Our revelations SAVE (except) the Disbelievers.
Surah 4:14 Pickthal And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger (Jesus) and transgresseth His limits, He will make him ENTER Fire where he will dwell FOR EVER; his will be a shameful doom.
Surah 6:115 (Pickthal) Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is Naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
So it is established that Surah 29:47, 6:115 & 3:3 say Allah sent down the Book of JESUS to JESUS Al-Massih and that NONE can change His words, in the similar manner as the Quran was given to Muhammad.
Putting aside the gospel of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, can you produce the Book of Jesus which Quran claims that Allah sent down the Book/Gospel of Jesus similar to the manner he sent down the Quran to Muhammad? If not, then why Allah cannot preserve his scripture in the Book of Jesus when his word in the Quran 6:115 says NONE can change his scripture???
Where is the Book of Jesus today that Quran says Allah sent it down to JESUS??? If you say Christians corrupt the Gospel of Jesus then what criteria do you use to prove conclusively that Muslims do not corrupt the Quran like the Christians and the Jews did???
There is ample evidence that Quran today is corrupted by Zaid Ibn Thabit when he revised the codex based on Hasfah Codex but ignored Ibn Masud Codex and Ibn Kab Codex which were used earlier than Zaid Codex. So how do you prove to me that Zaid Codex is the original Quran when Abdullah Ibn Masud was a Muslim and follower of Muhammad even before Zaid Ibn Thabit was born??? Ibn Masud was one of the best reciters of Quran and he could recite 70 surahs before Muhammad at a time. What criteria did Zaid Ibn Thabit possess???
XXX There are many other verses we can qoute but these 3 are sufficient to make the poitn of what we are talking about. So we believe that the Torah and the Gospel were sent to the people without a doubt.
+++ As the burden of proof is on the person who asserts that the Gospel of Jesus is the Book from Allah, then you have to produce the original Gospel which Quran makes mention of its existence. You cannot simply say the Gospel or the Book was corrupted by people when the Book on the Gospel of Jesus was not even written by JESUS Himself. In the context of the Quran, the Gospel of Jesus was a Book from Allah. So the Book or Gospel of Jesus must exist in order to prove that Surah 3:3 is true. If the Book of Jesus cannot be produce to prove it existed, then Quran is wrong. The logic is the Quran is a Book of men which can last for around 1,400 years and the Book of Genesis can last for over 4,000 years. You quoted from one of the critics that Hindu Scripture lasts for 5,000 years.
So putting aside the gospel of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, is there any logic to say the Book of Jesus does not exist today???
XXX But we dont believe that these scriptures are intact. And here is why:
Luke 9:6 - 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere. Luke 20:1 - 1One day as he was teaching the people in the temple courts and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him.
+++ The Gospel is translated from Greek word "euaggelizo" which is evangelize or to proclaim the good news especially the good tidings. Can you prove to me that the word "Gospel" means Book???
Luke 9:6 And they departed and went through the towns, proclaiming the gospel (good news) and healing everywhere.
XXX Where is the gospel refered to here? Obviously jesus and his deciples were not preaching from the book of Luke, Matthew, Mark, or John. So where is the gospel that was being preached this is what we believe in.
+++ The authors for the Gospel of Jesus wrote the historical accounts on the ministry of JESUS on earth. Where did the Bible say Jesus was preaching from the book of Luke, Matthew, Mark or John???
XXX What you have is a hadith about the gospel to put it in islamic terms, you have what people recall of the gospel, the events surrounding the message of jesus but you do not have the gospel which he preached that is spoken about in 2 places as we point out to you.
+++ You have a ridiculous conclusion that the gospel means "Book". The first mention of god tidings or gospel is Prophet Isaiah and that the person who received the Spirit of God went to preach it and not given the Book!!!
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach GOOD TIDINGS unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound (KJV)
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring GOOD NEWS to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound (ESV)
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on Me; because Jehovah has anointed Me to preach the GOSPEL to the poor; He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound (MKJV)
Conclusion: None of the Prophet or Apostles of JESUS ever say JESUS was given the BOOK from God. Only Quran implied that the Gospel is the Book from Allah and yet it never exist till today!!!
XXX Now can I just reject these hadiths of yours? I cant, because in there we find that it is said that jesus said "Hear O israel your lord your god is ONE god" that is soemthing I absolutly believe so if I were to deny completely your bible I would be denying this creed of faith this is why the prophet said to us do not believe and do not disbelieve because there is truth mixed with falsehoods. So we have answered with reguards to the Gospel so what about the Torah
+++ You have quoted from the corrupted translation: "Hear O israel your lord your god is ONE god" The original text in Hebrew read as this: Deu 6:4 Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. Zec 14:9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name shall be one. The name of Jehovah (YHVH) is known by one NAME Only; He is one YHVH and not one God!!!
It is your problem from the Islamic Creed that you should believe in what Jesus received from God but you find the Gospel from the apostles of Jesus contradicted with the Quran. There is no way to reconcile that both the Quran and the Gospel in the Bible are from the same God because of many contradictions in the Quran when compared to the Gospel. So you are making a false claim that the Gospel of Jesus in the Bible is not the original Gospel.
First, you are making a false assertion that the Book of Jesus exist, then you claim that the Gospel of Jesus according to Matthew, Luke, Mark or John were not the original Book of Jesus. As I said earlier, you have to prove to the Christians that what your Quran claims is true by producing the Book of Jesus to prove your statement is truthful. From my observation, the Quran which has no divine approval to be written in a book, can last for around 1,400 years; none of the writers for the Quran are appointed by Allah. There is no logic for the Book of Jesus if it was ever given, to be lost when the Book of Moses can last for over 4,000 years.
XXX In what is called the Torah we read the following: Deut. 34:5-10 - 5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD 6 And he was buried in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor; and no man knoweth of his sepulchre UPTO THIS DAY.
So it is obviuos that this was added to the scripture it was not there originally, this seems to be someone writing a few years or even centuries after the death of moses and if this verse is added in, what is to say something else wsa not added in or subtracted and ascribed to moses?
+++ Now where did the Bible say it was Moses who wrote the whole Book of Deuteronomy??? The division of scripture of God into different Books were done by holy men of God who classified it under the same Book based on the context of the message. Based on the rules for the canon of scripture, each Book have to meet criteria individually before being selected into the list of authorised scriptures. These scriptures are then compiled into the Holy Bible. The 5 Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy all has its independent authority. To say that the Book of Deutronomy has contradiction does not affect the other 4 Books at all. So how do you prove that the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus & Numbers cannot be intact too?
The Book of Deutronomy could be originally given to Moses and his brother Prophet Aaron wrote it for Moses. As it says much about Moses, so the theologians ascribe the author as Moses. Similarly Quran is not written by Muhammad but his companions or followers and you still claim it was God who given Quran to Muhammad???
Exodus 7:1 And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. And Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
The other explanation is that the Book of Deuteronomy was originally given to Moses and Prophet Joshua wrote the Book or the obituary page of Chapter 34 only.
Deu 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him. And the sons of Israel listened to him, and did as Jehovah commanded Moses.
XXX This is again why as the prophet says do not believe nor disbelieve because again Moses is qouted as having said "Hear O isreal your lord god is ONE god" and as such we cannot deny that this is from god and his messenger so we cannot deny the book, but for certain we can deny the verses I just qouted to be words from moses.
+++ That is a foolish claim to say you agree with Moses when you have changed the word from "One YHVH" in Hebrew text to one God???
YOU: So it is your personal problem and not the problem of the scriptures in the Holy Bible.
XXX ME: No it is not my personal problem, I know what I believe and I know what my prophet taught and I have now explained to you in plain english what was said and given proof for everything I claimed.
+++ First of all, all the claims in the Quran about the Book of Abraham, Book of Ishmael and Book of Jesus cannot be produced to prove that Quran is truthful. So whose problem is that??? Of course the book of Quran is the cause of the problem!
YOU: TEST 1
Muhammad believed in what the Christians believed???
Surah 29:46 (Pickthal) ... WE BELIEVE in that which hath been revealed unto us and REVEALED UNTO YOU; our God and your God is ONE [same God], and unto Him [same God] we surrender.
XXX ME: I just explaiend this so no need for me to repeat myself.
+++ Muhammad said "unto Him we surrender" which means God the Father of Jesus is the one, he surrendered to him. So do you surrender to the One who called Jesus "My beloved Son" or to the one who say he has no son???
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him. Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
YOU: The Quran -- Surah 4:157 "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so.." CONTRADICTING the words of JESUS in the Gospel???
XXX ME: Really was this what jesus was preaching when he is qouted in Luke 9 and 20?
+++ What are the words of JESUS before his death??? Mat 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mat 20:18 Jesus said "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem: and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to CRUCIFY him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you. Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Did Thomas touch the hands and pierced side of Jesus the Messiah and call Him "My Lord AND my God"???
John 20:28 And Thoma answered and said to him, My Lord, and my God! [Mari Valohi.] (Aramic Etheridge Translation)
Surah 4:14 (Pickthal) And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger (Jesus) and transgresseth His limits, He will make him ENTER Fire where he will dwell FOR EVER; his will be a shameful doom.
How can you escape Hell when you disobey the Messenger JESUS who said "If you love me Keep my commandments"? How many commandments of JESUS you have kept???
Do you love JESUS??? John 14:15 Jesus said "If you LOVE ME, keep My Commandments. John 14:24 "He who does not LOVE ME does not keep My Words, and the Word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would LOVE ME, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me." (MKJV)
John 10:17 Jesus said "Therefore doth my Father LOVE ME, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man LOVE ME, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
What are the Commandments of JESUS? Mat 28:18 And JESUS came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mark 16:15 And he (JESUS) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Now, Ali do you love JESUS? If you do, then why you disobey the commandment of JESUS that he that believeth shall be BAPTIZED?
JESUS himself was baptized by Prophet John so as to fulfill the Law. Are you greater than JESUS that you can forgo the water baptism???
Mat 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was BAPTIZED, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
The purpose of water baptism is to identify your belief in Lord JESUS that you truly love Him and to recive the gift of the Holy Spirit that He promised to every believer.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent and be BAPTIZED, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those AFAR OFF, as many as the Lord our God shall call."
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were BAPTIZED, both men and women.
Acts 8:16 For as yet He had not fallen on any of them, they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
+++ How could Muhammad qualify as a prophet when he failed the law in Surah 3:81???
XXX Again a repeat question, already answered above.
+++ Not at all. The context is about a practising prophet who have to help and assist him. But there is no prophet who helped Muhammad to confirm his service for Allah.
Quran 3:81 (P) When Allah made COVENANT with the PROPHETS: "Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a Messenger, CONFIRMING that which ye possess. Ye (practising Prophet) shall believe in him and ye shall help him.
The practising Prophet have to believe and shall help the later prophet. But Muhammad has no practising Prophet to confirm his service for God. So he failed to be a true prophet.
I will not leave this Surah 3:81 in peace and will requote it many times until Muslims get the message!
YOU: PROPHET JESUS said there was no crossing over the Bridge from Hell to Paradise: Luke 16:26 "And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there."
BUT Muhammad recited there would be rescue for people in Hell to Paradise: Sura 19:72 "Then We shall rescue those who kept from evil, and leave the evil-doers crouching there. (Pickthal) Note: Rescue operation is in hell just as rescue operation at war scene will leave the dead and rescue the injured vitcims.
XXX ME: First of lets look at the verse in context Luke 16: 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
I hope people can read with understanding, this is talking about someone who is already in heave and someone who is already in hell. It is not talking about the bridge form the plain where mankind will be judged which is where the bridge you are speaking of is.
+++ You are right that the context is about those already in Heaven and Hell. At least you got the first part of the message right. Now the 2nd part is there is a great chasm or gulf dividing the Hell and Heaven. So where is the Bridge that you would like to "insert" into the Quran to explain that believers can cross this Bridge??? What the Hadith says about this Bridge was written over 100 years after the Quran. So why should I accept the Hadith when it contradicts with the words of Jesus the Son of God???
Luke 16:26 JESUS said "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
XXX Now to the quranic verse you mentioned lets look at it's translations 019.072 YUSUFALI: But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees.
PICKTHAL: Then We shall rescue those who kept from evil, and leave the evil-doers crouching there.
SHAKIR: And We will deliver those who guarded (against evil), and We will leave the unjust therein on their knees.
So quite clearly the verse in question has multiple meanings as is the case with many arabic words. But lets use the word rescue real quick and see what it means because even this word does not mean
+++ The word of "rescue" must be understood in the context of the Quran's background about Surah 19:71-72 and not in the modern dictionary of Arabic today which may have changed to suit the interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith.
XXX Interestingly enough this word rescue in the english language means "Law. to liberate or take by forcible or illegal means from lawful custody." so yes god will liberate us from Hell if we are so choosen. Because quite clearly the sending to hell is a LAW that god as set up, so again within the english language this makes perfect sense that god rescues a person from hell or as the other translators state he will save or deliver us from hell.
+++ Now, thank you for agreeing that Surah 19:71-72 says Muslims are going to Hell and God "rescues a person from hell" and " god will liberate us from Hell if we are so choosen".
But rescue can never mean "deliver from" because to rescue the people from danger in a WAR ZONE, the rescuers have to enter the WAR ZONE and evacuate the affected people.
SURAH 19:72 PICKTHAL: "Then We shall rescue those who kept from evil, and leave the evil-doers crouching there."
Do you read the word "LEAVE the evil-doers crouching there"? There must be many Muslims still left crouching there in Hell after the Day of Judgment. From your first part of agreement that JESUS meant the Rich Man was already in Hell and Lazarus (beggar) already in Heaven. Surah 19:72 exactly narrates of those people who will be rescued and those who will be left crouching there in Hell.
Just in case you forget the words of Allah in the first part of the message before Surah 19:72 as who will enter Hell. Muhmmad was told by Allah that NONE OF YOU BUT SHALL APPROACH IT; THAT IS A FIXED ORDINANCE (DECREE) OF YOUR LORD".
Allah did not say there is a Bridge to cross to Heaven. It clearly means "NONE OF YOU" shall escape HELL and that Allah shall RESCUE only those who kept from evil BUT LEAVE evil-doers therein.
Surah 19:71-72 (Pickthal) "There is NOT ONE of YOU but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord. Then We shall rescue those who kept from evil, and leave the evil-doers crouching there.
So how do you come out of HELL when JESUS the Messiah said there would be NO cross-over from Hell to Heaven???
XXX I have not seen the day of judgement but from what I recall in my islamic studies (over 16 years ago) there will be a bridge from the plain of judgement to heaven, and below this bridge will be hell, so those that fall off this bridge will be in hell, and those that cross will be in heaven, and it is only by the mercy of allah will a person be able to cross that bridge, so it is the rescue of that person or the saving of that person or the deliverance of that person take your pick it all means exactly the same thing.
(Other parts are deleted as not important than Surah 19:71-72)
+++ YOU: Quran 3:3 (Yusuf Ali) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, CONFIRMING what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Why Surah 3:3 is false today? How could an Almighty God produce a verse which cannot be preserved to be true at all times??? God can never lie. A false word does not come from Almighty God. You cannot make a man's word to be true by saying the Gospel is corrupt.
XXX ME: If you read what I stated above you should by now know that you dont have the Gospel or Torah refered to in the quran, you have what people rememberd of it or hadiths of it which are lialbe to error as I have poitned out.
+++ As I mentioned Quran mentions those books of Torah and Gospel which if these books do not exist today, then Quran is making a false claim of their existence.
Why could Quran be truth when the older Qurans from Ibn Masus and Ibn kab were destroyed and replaced by revised text from Zaid Codex from a man who is not a prophet???
YOU: Quran is the book of men; Allah asked you to make pilgrim to the Kaaba Black Stone and go round it, pray to it and kiss the Black Stone. These are all paganism who is stated in Surah 2:158. So you are merely idol worshipper, no different than the pagan Arabs.
Surah 2:158 (P) Lo! (the mountains) Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore NO SIN for him who is on pilgrimage to THE HOUSE (of God) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord (for him), Lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.
Who say it is no sin to follow the paganism way of worship??? The Kaaba is an idol of Stone.
XXX ME: This verse was revealed when the muslims did not have full control over the Kaaba, and because of the idols that were there the muslims feared that they would be commiting shirk if they performed the obligation of Hajj, which is why this was revealed to let them know that it is not a problem because you are not going there for the idols but to visit THE HOUSE, the masjid of Abraham our father.
+++ As I have pointed out from the Book of Genesis the oldest record on earth about Abraham and Ishmael that they never ENTER Saudi Arabia needless to say He went to 1000 miles from Hebron in order to build the Kaaba in Mecca.
There is no prophet to the Arabs before Muhammad: Quran 11:49 (P) This is of the tidings of the unseen which We inspire in thee. Thou thyself knewest it not nor did thy folk before this. Then have patience. Lo! the sequel is for those who ward off (evil).
Obviously Quran 11:49 contradicts with Quran 2:127 (P): And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House: Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.
Quran 11:49 clearly states that there had been no prophets to the Arabs before Muhammad, so it can't be true that Abraham & Ismael built the Kaaba (Quran 2: 127). Also note that the Islamic traditions point out that before Muhammads claim to the prophetic office, none of his people had made the claim before him [Bukhari, Vol 1, Bk 1, #6].
Objective: To prove conclusive that Quran is a false Book because Surah 19:54 has no truth in it by evidence deduced from the oldest book of Genesis in the Book of Hebrew Tanaakh. The Book of Genesis has lasted for over 4,000 years older than Quran and Hadith.
Surah 19:54 (P) And make mention in the Scripture of ISHMAEL. Lo! he was a keeper of his promise, and he was a messenger (of Allah), a prophet.
But the Book of Genesis says Ishmael was an archer and not a Prophet.
After Isaac was born and weaned ie. about 3 years old, Sarah saw Ishmael was mocking Isaac. Sarah pleaded with Abraham to cast Hagar out, and the following morning she was given bread, a bottle of water and her son. She then wandered into the wasteland of Beer-Sheba, which is in southern Canaan [Gen 21:8-20].
Muslims' claim that Ishmael and Hagar went to Mecca (aka Paran) is utterly illogical as her mother being an Egyptian has inclination to return to Egypt than wandered into the Arabian Desert which takes at least 26 days to reach Mecca.
Furthermore the food ration was sufficient for 1 day's journey and no money was given by Abraham. Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder.
The wilderness of Paran is located at southern Israel on the way to Egypt. Gen 21:21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
In these passages, God addresses Abraham and calls Hagar the maidservant ['amah' not wife as in Genesis 16:3; compare the Latin Vulgate where in Genesis 21:8-12 ancilla is maidservant or female slave ]. Hagar had lost any status she may have earlier enjoyed, so her status as a wife can be questioned and that Ishmael became the son of the slave woman and no longer called the son of Abraham.
Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife (Hebrew "ishshah") took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife (Hebrew "ishshah")
Abraham was very grieved because he always thought that Ishmael was the first son. But God told him to listen to Sarah and cast out both Hagar and Ishmael.
Gen 21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, "Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Notes: God approved for Hagar and Ishmael to be cast out of Abraham's family. When they were cast out by Abraham upon the plead by Sarah, the legal status of Hagar as wife become slavewoman and Ishmael become the son of Hagar and not of the son of Abraham BECAUSE "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."
Gen 21:13 (God said) "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
NOTES: Immediately God address Ishmael as "the son of the slavewoman" (Gen 21:13) and not as the son of Abraham. Who change this status of Ishmael??? It is not Abraham nor Sarah. It was God Himself who call Ishmael as "the son of the bondwoman"!!!
How far can Hagar and Ishmael go on foot when Abraham did not give a camel for them to ride on? They merely wandered in the wilderness of Paran in southern Israel ON FOOT!!!! Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on HER shoulder, and the child, and SENT HER AWAY: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.
Abraham did not escort Hagar who lost her status as the legal wife of Abraham to Mecca. Hagar merely wandered in the wilderness of Paran desert and not in Saudi Arabia.
God addressed to Hagar and did not speak to Ishmael eventhough he was about 16 years olf. as compared to the boy Samuel, God already spoke to the boy.
Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
God is love, He provides for those whom He loved. Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
Ishmael became an archer and not a prophet??? Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
Did the angel say Ishmael would be a prophet? NO, he would be a wild man, a hostile boy or man going against every one of his own descendants. Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
So where is the proof from the oldest book in the Bible that Ishmael is a prophet???