Friday, May 27, 2011

Response to Muslim at youtube winnertakeall1 -- "Noble Qur'an did not say that Jesus had died"???

Is this really true: "Noble Qur'an did not say that Jesus had died"???

The answer to the words of Muslim WTA depends solely on whom you really believe whether you believe in the words of Messiah Yahshua (Jesus) as written in the ancient Khabouris Codex dated around 165AD or another person called Eesa, not Yahshua, in the Quran of which the oldest Sana'a manuscript dated around 715AD, which has no eye-witness to the historical events that happened to Messiah Yahshua who lived around 3BC till AD33.

First of all, WTA has failed to establish that Eesa in the Quran, is the same person as Yah'shua commonly called "Jesus" by the Christians today.
Secondly, WTA has failed to prove that Eesa did not say "I was DEAD" when Sura 4:157 is not the spoken words of Eesa himself.
WTA has absolutely failed to prove nothing but projecting his own words into the mouth of the holy Messiah Yah'shua by deception about "his Second Coming" in Sura 19:33.

XXX = Winnetakeall1 (WTA)
+++ = Positron

Quote from Muslim WTA:
I am going to apply the most simplest form of grammar for past tense, present tense and future present tense.
Please ask your nine year old kid to check and verify..... ok ?


XXX Quote from WTA:
Yusuf Ali's Translation : Noble Qur'an 19 : 33
01). " So peace is on me the day I was born,
The word " was " means past tense. That means the birth of Jesus was passed !

Please prove that Eesa in Arabic is Yahshua in Hebrew before you can equate it as the spoken words of Yahshua (Jesus). Failing to produce 4 credible witnesses will prove that you are a liar rather than a credible witness. The principle of the Law in Deuteronomy 19:15 & Matthew 18:16 shall apply: "At the mouth of 2 or 3 credible witnesses every word shall be established."

If you think that the words in the Quran - Sura 24:11-15 is about the charge of adultery or fornication against a chaste woman, then think about it whether the lie against Yahshua (Jesus) of saying something like "So peace is on me the day I was born" could be justified if in reality that someone else called "Eesa" had spoken it and not Yahshua the Son of Yahweh Elohim???

XXX Quote from WTA:
02). the day that I " die ",
The phrase " the day that I " die " means in future tense.
Note : If Jesus had earlier been dead and resurrected , Jesus would have said....
" the day that I " d i e d "

REBUTTAL: When "Eesa", not Yahshua was speaking the "prophecy", he was still a babe in the cradle as told in Sura 19:29. So how could Eesa say "the day that I died" when it was a prophecy of his near future in his life-time??? If it was an event AFTER his life-time, then it was a false prophecy because Eesa was speaking the words as a single prophecy and not in 3 parts of his life-time in the future AFTER his 2nd coming. There is not a single word in the verse which speaks "when I come again, the day that I die". So it is absolutely wrong to insert the words "When I come again" into the interpretation of the words of a person called "Esa", not "Yahshua".

Sura 19:28 (Yusuf Ali) "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
[19:29] But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
[19:30] He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
[19:31] "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
[19:32] "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
[19:33] "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
[19:34] Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Challenge to WTA:
Please produce a verse from the Holy Bible the oldest Greek or Aramaic Text that Messiah Yahshua said "I am indeed a servant of Allah". Allah in Sanskrit means "goddess", not god. Did Yahshua speak Sanskrit or Arabic "Allah" and not Hebrew "El"???

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Yahu'shua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My Elohim, my Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?

The words of Messiah Yahshua have refuted the lies of the scribe who wrote Sura 19:28-34 because Yah'shua called His Father as "My Elohim" or "My Father" because He had said earlier that "Elohim was His Father" based on His idiom in John 8:54 & John 5:17.

John 8:54 Yahushua answered, "If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is My Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that He is your Elohim"

John 5:17 But Yahu'shua answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that Elohim was His Father, making himself equal with Elohim.

Fulfilled prophecy:
Jeremiah 8:8 "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of YHWH is with us? Lo, certainly the lying pen of the scribes hath made it falsehood."

Note: The scribe of the Quran has twisted the words of Yahshua in the Holy Bible and made it into a lie about another person called "Eesa". Yahshua called His Father "Elohim" which is YHWH to the Jews and "My Father" to the Son of YHWH. Yahshua never uttered "Allah" in His life-time on earth. So it is a lie of Satan that Yah'shua had uttered "I am indeed a servant of Allah" Lie, lie, lie!!!

XXX Quote from WTA:
03). and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
This phrase is also meant to be in future tense where,
after completing his mission in his second coming, Jesus will die and,
Jesus will be brought back to life again .

REBUTTAL: Please show us the original Arabic Text which has the words of "After completing his mission in his second coming"??? The prophecy of Eesa has nothing to do with Yashua and has nothing to do with "his second coming" because there is not a single word about "his second coming" in Sura 19:33.

Let's take a look at the similar words of Zechar-Yah about his son John the Baptist (Yahya).
[019:010] (Zakariya) said: "O my Lord! give me a Sign." "Thy Sign," was the answer,
"Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou
art not dumb."
[019:011] So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs
to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening:
[019:012] "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with
might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
[019:013] And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
[019:014] And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
[019:015] So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that
he will be raised up to life (again)!

By comparing the words of Eesa and the words of Zechar-Yah (Zakariya), we can see that the life of John the Baptist will be a foreshadow for Messiah Yah'shua. As John the Baptist was born about 6 months older than Messiah Yah'shua, Prophet John the Baptist and Messiah Yah'shua shared the same destiny in their life-time.

[019:015] (Yahya's life:) "So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)"
[19:33] (Eesa's life;) "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!


1) Did Prophet John the Baptist escape "Death" in his life-time???
No, he was beheaded and DIED on the spot in the prison and his body was buried.

Mat 14:6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
Mat 14:7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.
Mat 14:8 And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.
Mat 14:9 And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
Mat 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
Mat 14:11 And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother.
Mat 14:12 And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Yahushua.

Likewise what was foretold about Prophet John the Baptist would also befall upon Eesa, son of Mary sister of Aaron but not another Mary from the daughters of Aaron. The word "sister" is only used if both Mary and Aaron lived at the same period of time and of the same parents -- both father and mother.

2) Was Prophet John the Baptist raised to heaven secretly without any eye-witness about his resurrection and ascension to heaven???
No, God is not a deceiver nor does he tempt anyone with deceit. If God has intended to raise John the Baptist in his lifetime, He would have said so openly in the Holy Scripture. If God has intended to cause John the Baptist to "ascend into the heaven", He would have sent 2 credible witnesses to record about the incident in the Holy Scripture. When there is no word from YHWH about "raise" John the Baptist from his dead, it is best to avoid saying he was raised to heaven.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of YHWH: "For YHWH cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

God gave His law on 2 or 3 credible witnesses so that every word shall be establised by eye-witness and not by vision. Read the Law of YHWH.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

As every one can read that "two or three witnesses" means 2 or 3 persons who have seen or heard about the event who live at the time of the event. There is no provision for "visions" to be used as evidence since it does not meet the requirement of the Law both in the context of the Holy Scripture and even in today's Court of laws!!!

Take a good look at Quran Sura 24:11-15 and understand that there is no provision for "visions" to be used as a valid witnesss against a chaste woman. What more do you need for a chaste man like Messiah Yahshua who committed no sin in his life-time on earth?

Sura 24:11 (Pickthal)
Lo! they who spread the slander are a gang among you. Deem it not a bad thing for you; nay, it is good for you. Unto every man of them (will be paid) that which he hath earned of the sin; and as for him among them who had the greater share therein, his will be an awful doom.
COMMENT: To spread the slander about the chaste woman or about holy Yahshua is a serious sin and every person who is part of the gang will be personally accountable. The great liars with a "greater share therein" will be an awful doom!!!

Sura 24:13 (Pickthal)
Why did they not produce four witnesses ? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah.
COMMENT: To spread the lie about Yahshua did not die on the Cross is an awful sin because he or she does not have 4 credible witnesses to support his or her assertion!

Sura 24:15 (Pickthal)
When ye welcomed it with your tongues, and uttered with your mouths that whereof ye had no knowledge, ye counted it a trifle. In the sight of Allah it is very great.
COMMENT: It may seem to be trifle to spread the lie about Messiah Yahshua did not die on the Cross but Yah'weh (YHWH) will not leave the guilty unpunished (acquit the wicked eg. lying tongues, murderers, idolaters).

Nahum 1:3 YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all ACQUIT THE WICKED: YHWH hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Job 10:14 "If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not ACQUIT me from mine iniquity."

Messiah Yahshua said "every useless word" must be given account on the Day of Judgment. If anyone lied against Yahshua that He did not die on the Cross, then he or she must prove it by the spoken words of Yahshua in the Holy Gospel. Failing to prove it, the sin of such lie will not be forgiven at all. The Law says "YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all ACQUIT THE WICKED" because the liars have not repented before he or she died. So how could this sin of lying about Yahshua be forgiven on the Day of Judgment???

Mat 12:36 But I (Yahshua) say unto you, "That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

The Law of Yahweh is:
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Obviously "bear false witness" is a violation of God's law. To bear false witness that Messiah Yahshua did not die is a great sin against Him because he or she not only did not believe in the words of Messiah Yahshua but challenge the truth of His spoken words! Any person who do not challenge the words of Messiah Yahshua are not called the sons or daughters of the Devil - John 8:44.

John 8:41 (Yahshua said;) "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even Elohim.
John 8:42 Yahushua said unto them, If Elohim were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from Elohim; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

XXX Quote from WTA:
Note : All human beings will die once on this earth and on Judgement Day will be brought back to life again !
Noble Qur'an 2 : 28
How can ye reject the faith in God ?- seeing that ye were without life, and
He gave you life; then
will He cause you to die, and
will again bring you to life;
and again to Him will ye return.

Please produce 3 credible witnesses that the written words in Sura 2:28 was spoken by Allah and not of the scribe who had learned it from the Holy Bible or other scriptures. The idea of "all human beings will die once on this earth" is not an original message from the Quran as the Holy Bible has it written over 500 years before Quran was written.

Hebrew 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment: So the Messiah was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you WTA, have believed that "all human beings will die once on this earth" then you must have lied by saying that Eesa had not died unless you believe that Eesa was not a human being. If Eesa was not a human, then he must be Divine or God. So which ones is the right answer from the back of your mind or from the bottom of your heart???

XXX Quote from WTA:
Hello Mister Positron,
can you see the word sequence...... without life, life, die, life... !
So !
Noble Qur'an did not say that Jesus had " died " .......ok, mr positron66 ?


What is the association of the words of Quran 2:28 as compared to the words of Eesa in Quran 19:33??? Did Eesa say about "life, life, die, life" in sequence as compared to Quran 2:28???

Sura 19:33 says about "life, die, life" only as seen here: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)". Eesa, not Yahshua, spoke of his 3 days in his life-time: 1) "the day" of his birth - "I was born";
2) "the day" of his death - "that I die";
3) "the day" of his resurrection - "raised up to life"

The sequence of the life-time of Eesa was foretold in the Quran as follows:-
Sura 3:55 (Yusuf Ali)
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and RAISE thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Sura 3:55 (Sher Ali)
Remember the time when Allah said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will RAISE thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will EXALT those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to ME shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines "raise" as "bring (someone) back from death": God raised Jesus from the dead

The word "raise" does not mean ascend to heaven; despite of the multiple meanings of the word "raise" it is not used to mean "ascend to heaven" in any of the other meanings given by the Oxford English Dictionary. Secondly, those who follow Eesa will be exalted or superior than those who reject the faith of his death, resurrection and ascension.

Both these Quran Translators used the word "raise" to mean " bring back from the death".
1. Yusuf Ali (Quran 4:157-158)
Nay, God RAISED him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;
And there is NONE of the People of the Book but must believe in HIM BEFORE HIS DEATH; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them

2. Khalifa (Quran 4:157-158)
"Instead, God RAISED him to Him; God is Almighty, Most Wise.
Everyone among the People of the Scripture was required to believe in HIM BEFORE HIS DEATH. On the Day of Resurrection, He will be a witness against them.

Based on Khalifa Translation, everyone was required to believe in Eesa BEFORE His Death and He would a witness against those who disbelieve on the Day of Resurrection of the DEAD. As there is not a single word of Eesa about his second coming, then the only logical explanation is that HE HAD DIED IN HIS LIFE-TIME.

If "EVERYONE" must believe in EESA before HIS DEATH after completing his work in His 2nd Coming, then whom would he be fighting against as there are no infidels on earth to fight for. To understand the words in the Quran correctly: "Everyone among the People of the Scripture was required to believe in HIM BEFORE HIS DEATH.", it means the Apostles of Yahshua did not yet understand the words of Yahshua about His Death and Resurrection - BEFORE His Death.

John 20:9 "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead."

Where the Qur'an is unclear regarding Yahshua (Jesus), it is obviously best to consult the Holy Inji-l as the Qur'an advises:
"And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee.." (Sura Yunus 10:94)

If we do as the Qur'an instructs and ask those who read the Inji-l, then all doubt is removed. We come to understand not only the fact of Jesus' death and resurrection and how it occurred, but also why he DIED - why it was God's plan from ages past to have him die on the Cross.

Matt 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Yahushua said unto them, "The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Matt 17:23 And they shall KILL him, and the third day he shall be raised again." And they were exceeding sorry.

John 10:35 Messiah Yahshua said "...the Scripture cannot be broken" which means none of His spoken words will fail to be fulfilled in his life-time.

There are at least 4 credible witnesses near the Cross of Yahshua namely (1) Mary mother of Yahshua, (2) Mary the wife of Cleophas (3) Mary Magdalene and (4) Apostle John the disciple whom Yahshua loved:
John 19:25 Now there stood by the stake of Yahushua his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:26 When Yahushua therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

These 4 credible eye-witnesses saw and heard from Messiah Yahshua who was crucified on the Cross at Golgotha in Jerusalem city:

John 19:30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the spirit.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the stake on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
John 19:33 But when they came to Yahushua, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

The author of the Gospel was Apostle John as "he that saw it bare record and his record is true".

So where are the 4 credible witnesses of Muslims who saw and heard from Messiah Yahshua that he said "I had not died"????

REFUTED the blatant lie of WTA:

Messiah Yahshua said:
Rev 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was DEAD; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, amein; and have the keys of hell and of death."

No comments: